According to EurActiv, the Greek and the Macedonian prime ministers will meet on Friday to discuss the stupid name issue they have been running for years.
I have said what I think about this over a year ago already. And I still think that the name of a country should not be part of serious discussions between two European countries, one of them being a member of the European Union.
So Greece, let Macedonia call itself "Macedonia" (instead of "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" - FYROM), and Macedonia, promise that you don't want any territory in today's Greece. Then shake hands and let the EU candidate country Macedonia advance on its path towards the European Union and let us come closer to a united European continents where countries don't fight over names or territories but work together for their citizens.
Thanks in advance for being reasonable!
Wednesday, 25 November 2009
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56 comments:
This is great idea Julien
but there is no one to listen to such proposals :(
Well, 355 academics think FYROM calling itself Macedonia is silly.
http://macedonia-evidence.org/
They have proposed the name Paionia, given that FYROM is located in the land called in ancient times Paionia, not Macedonia. That on condition that they discover the Paionian language and customs (unknown) and adopt them as their own along with the name. Is that silly? Is calling themselves Macedonians not even sillier? What about the ethnic Macedonians (the Greeks) who still speak the language of the ancient Macedonians? What would you propose they are called? Do I have the right like you to propose that the Londoners should be called Bogotans, the Parisians, Moschovites, the New Yorkers, Arizonians, because a former communist republic has decided it wants their names by an act of self-determination? Why should the Macedonians (Greeks) having the customs and language directly descended from the ancient Macedonians and actually living in the area of Macedonia not be called Macedonians anymore? What is even the point of a Slavic people who may now say, following your proposal, that they do not want Macedonia still wanting to be named Macedonians?
In fact, I don't care how the country wants to call itself. I don't want this to be a matter of European relations, of a political dispute that hinders the further development of good relations between European countries.
If an elected government wants to call the country "Macedonia" and as long as no other country is called this way I don't see a problem. If some think that this is a stupid name then they need to convince or change the government of the country. This is the idea of democracy.
And if they decided to call themselves "Dfodojfjd", there might still be a group of people within the country that is not satisfied, and there might be an Amazonian tribe called the same way.
So what? Just stop making a big fuzz out of little names.
Dear Julien,
Thanks for your reply, ("In fact, I don't care how the country wants to call itself. I don't want this to be a matter of European relations ... etc") you start well and I agree with you on some of the principles. But this is not a matter for democracy in FYROM but an international issue that affects the rights of people outside their country.
There is strictly speaking no country called England. Is the name England and its connections with history, culture, literature, territory, etc available for FYROM? Would the English in that case be prepared to assume a different name for themselves, reject their heritage and leave England, because a former communist country wants a new English identity? Can FYROM democracy decide for English democracy?
A name is only a problem if you make one out of it, having the same name is thus the same.
I can have the same name as another person, but his doesn't affect my personality, my rights etc. and this doesn't affect any other person, too.
If FYROM calls itself "England" it might be strange, but as long as it doesn't pretend to BE the original England, if by calling itself England the rights of English people are not infringed (other than having to get used that there is a second England) I don't see a problem.
There is a city of Berlin in the US, and I can still be a Berliner in Germany without having any problems that there is another type of "Berliners" somewhere else on the globe.
What I want to say is: All concerned parties should solve the POLITICAL issues, secure the human and democratic rights of the people living in the region, and then everybody calls itself by the preferred name - because this not about a name but just about stupid politics against the interest of people.
I'm an American of Macedonian descent and I've been following the news on the "name issues" closely over the last month or so. It's great to hear some common sense from you, Julian, but as you see, people seem to completely lose their minds over this issue. I wish I could find intelligent and/or detailed analysis online. And all discussion quickly devolves into asinine, ALL CAPS arguments, with name-calling and never-ending bickering about ancient geopolitics. I'm hoping that "Republic of Northern Macedonia" will be the compromise, but I can't get a sense of how likely that is. If Greece vetoes again, when does Macedonia get another crack at applying? Will they have to wait another year? Five years? Or is this their last chance? I'm not sure why Greece is so insistent on using their veto power to harm--at least economically--a much weaker and poorer country that doesn't pose or express any real threat to them. (Yeah, I know that probably sounds ironic coming from an American, but expect more out of EU members...)
Dear Julien,
Having the same name as another person is one thing. Assuming on purpose the same name as another person is called identity theft and is a crime. If someone went to a court seeking to obtain rights to your inheritance claiming his name is Julien Frisch but previously he was called Vardarska, you would not be happy.
There are many Athenses in the USA (a dozen or more) without a problem. For FYROM, based on recent publications, the history, name, territory of Macedonia (in Greece) are FYROMian. Before the claims by FYROM, there was Tito and the Cominform in the 1940s, before that Bulgaria occupied Macedonia with German permission (1941-1944), since the 1920s the Comintern had similar plans to partition Greece. There have been numerous treaties in addition to the present dispute. There has been no history of this kind between the Berliners of Berlin and some alternative Berliners in various countries or organisations. The Berliners of the USA do not print schoolbooks for their children telling them that the Germans occupy Berlin.
Greeks could accept the solution you are proposing but it would have to be tested and proven in practice long term. Macedonians would still want themselves identified separately from the alternative Macedonians of FYROM. Whereas if FYROM adopted for themselves a name in their own language reflecting their own country (which they have in theory agreed to in the 1995 New York Accord), it would be the honest and quicker solution.
Free
I have always thought that under EU and NATO member states should put an ever greater pressure on Greece to stop this behavior. This goes against the European interest and EU's general goals as well as its Balkans policy. The Greek claim gets more absurd by each year, when not only its citizens, but more and more countries formally recognize the former Yugoslav republic under its name, Macedonia.
We changed the Constitution back in 1994 to include the thing you ask for. So, Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards Greece. Regarding the scholars this and that, please read this one:
http://alunsalt.com/2009/05/29/macedonia-from-bad-to-worse/
You have put in a very simply and clearly put.
By the way, has anyone ever met someone not greek or of greek descent that would agree with the position of Greece?
And I'm also looking for someone from Greece that would be able to discuss the issue rationally...
They remind me of the joke of the guy that listens in the radio that there is one car going in the opposite direction in the highway, to what he comments: ONE???? Not one, thousands!!!!
Indeed there is a lot of support for Greece: the United Nations have agreed this is a contentious issue and have passed two resolutions. The UN are mediating the issue on the basis of the New York Agreement of 1995, that essentially indicates that the name Macedonia is not agreeable for FYROM. Also 355 academics agree with the Greek position. Does anybody agree that the ancient Greek hero Macedon (see Hesiod) was a Yugoslav or that the ancient Macedonians spoke Slavic, other than FYROM academicians?
Kirev, have you read the article you are quoting? Alun Salt is basically saying the 355 scholars are not going far enough!
Read again: "Even if the ancient Macedonians weren’t Greek, ancient Greece is still not the same as modern Greece and modern Macedonia belongs inside the borders of modern Greece."
Moreover:
"There are schoolbooks showing a Greater Macedonia. That’s deeply worrying. that. If there is that kind of claim going on, then Greek concern over the name is entirely reasonable. The bank notes showing the White Tower of Thessaloniki is even worse."
Why these claims in the schoolbooks if you say the FYROM has no claims on Greece per constitutional ammendment? How can one trust FYROM's word? 14 years on and no proposal of an alternative name, only a prospecting exercise forcing states to recognise FYROM as Macedonia by refusing to propose an acceptable name.
The solution is simple, you need to think of a name in your own language. Why should it take one 18 years to remember what he is called in his own language?
By the way, Greece is not harming FYROM. Greece is he biggest foreign investor and actually supports FYROM integration into the EU. What Greece does not support is the perversion of history and out of the blue irredentism.
Read all the comments too
Did you read all the comments on the Alun Salt blog? Now read this http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2009/08/29/macedonia-and-greece-what-is-the-basis-for-a-reconciliation/
Yes, Kirev, in the comments there was a dispute as to whether the bank notes were actually issued or not. The accusing side said it is enough even if someone premeditated a crime, whether he was caught in advance and was apprehended is irrelevant in this case.
As for the article of this Dr Hoare (Agema Makedonon - two Greek words in the title) we see that language is irrelevant to ethnicity. Oh heritage is also irrelevant. History too? Why does this not apply to the fake Macedonians of FYROM but applies to the Greeks who actually speak the language of the ancient Macedonians and have cultural and historical continuity with them? Since all these things are irrelevant, FYROM has infinite options. So pick a name that has nothing to do with Greek history. History is not important, nor heritage. Mayans is up for the taking, Prussians, Francs, Romans, please suit yourselves.
The blogger (Dr Hoare) can have an academic debate with the 355 academics on what Macedonian ethnicity means.
Read it once again:
"Thank you for your voice of sanity. I should just add few corrections - the alleged banknote was never printed. It was a mockup by some individuals while we still had the Yugoslav dinars. It is in no way connected to the government or National Bank. Here's some independent cataloger with all the banknotes that were used http://www.atsnotes.com/catalog/macedonia/maced... plus the current ones http://nbrm.gov.mk/default-en.asp?ItemID=C2B154... .
....
Again, thank you for your voice of sanity. According to UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ 7 billion people can choose names of their roads, language, airports, nationality. Only 2 million Macedonians can not. "
How come you are allowed to have OFFICIAL national romanticism http://www.vinozito.gr/news/2007/july06_e.asp and we are not allowed to have unofficial one? Until 1913 Macedonia was united. We do not say that today it is. It is divided between Republic of Macedonia, Bulgaria and Greece. Confirmed by your FM http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=23227 .
You should especially read prof. Tompkins' rebuttal of the letter you are so proud of:
http://astro.temple.edu/~pericles/Letter.htm
Finally, when you decide to call your country Republic of Macedonia THEN you will have a problem as we were the first ones. Now there is no problem - you are Greece and we are Macedonia. To be proven soon in UN and the International Court of Justice (BTW, those 127 countries that recognize us as Macedonia are 90% of Earth population and all the members of UN Security council).
Enough of shameless bullying, we are not terrorists so we are denied all the basic human rights...
Former Greek FM made a HUGE step towards approaching your position by offering a solution based on Kofos, that Greece could accept there is a larger modern territory called Macedonia in agreement with your claims, so that you can also claim to be PART of Macedonia. Greece made an ENORMOUS step to get halfway towards a solution. What step has FYROM made in return?
Please, if you have an issue with what Macedonia is and how far it extends, take it up with the scholars. Tell Dan Tompkins he is right and 356 scholars are wrong. Two and a half million Macedonians in Greece are not Macedonians but a few thousand Slavs living in Macedonia are Macedonian to the exclusion of the Greeks... And the inhabitants of FYROM who live in Paionia and speak a Slavic language are also Macedonians. Is that romanticism or a sign of insanity?
Please get back your self respect and find a name for yourselves in your own language. The United Nations are not denying your self-identity, they are defending universal principles. The principle of self-determination asserts that self-determination should not harm the self-determination of others, of the Macedonians in this case.
-----------------------
The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav partisan and other sources with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected State. This Government considers talk of "Macedonian Nation", "Macedonian Fatherland", or "Macedonian National Consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.
* U.S. State Dep. Foreign Relations Vol. VII, Circular Airgram [868.014], 1944.
I do not have to tell prof. Tompkins anything. He told them all to first read a letter before signing.
Finally, you love politicians so much that you quote US State Dept. Foreign Relations Circular wire as a proof of non-existence of a nation? C'mon, you can do better. But don't forget - there are 3 million people that self-declare themselves as Macedonians since they were allowed to do that freely, back from 1944. End of story. Not another nation in the world had to prove it's ancient connections. We don't need to prove anything.
Maybe you should? http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Hellenic says that the term Hellenic is invented in 1836 by Droysen. How come that you are 4.000 year nation if the term itself is only 150 years old? Fishy, fishy...
And YOU allege "identity theft" and call it a crime? OK, no problem with us to see you in court. International Court of Justice. We started it, why didn't you follow if you are so certain that you are right?
Macedonian people managed to resist all the forms of suppression from all the sides. And don't you think that price of EU and NATO accession is too low to be paid for us to commit an identicide ?!? No way. We survived Romans, Byzantines, Ottomans, Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks... And we'll prevail and we'll continue to carry the torch of Macedonism. Why? Because we can and want to do so. Because we have no suspicion if we are Macedonians or something else.
By denying my basic human right to self-declare myself, you just want to justify the "right" of a refugee from Asia Minor to the Macedonian name. They have no right. They are immigrants, and Greeks. Not Macedonians, but they live in Macedonia now. You'll never be Macedonians. But you can claim the history of Macedonia as you now live there. End of story.
Dear Kirev,
If the United Nations, EU, NATO and the academics are not good enough for FYROM politicians and they have to take Greece to court hoping to defend in this way their misappropriation of history and their outdated irredentism, that only underscores their outdated mentality. I have said already enough. The Greek position is clear, it is supporting FYROM but not irredentism, not propaganda, not the revisionism of history. You claim Droysen invented the word “Hellenic”. I recommend you visit a library. Any library will do. You will find there a book or several books predating Droysen with the word Hellenic in them. Herodotus, Aristotle, writers of later periods and modern writers. It is quite pointless to argue such things.
League of Nations records show that the majority of the population in Macedonia (in Greece not in outer space) was Greek. Slavs amounted to about 13% of the population of (Hellenic) Macedonia prior to the arrival of the Greek refugees from Turkey. The majority of those Macedonian Slavs emigrated to Bulgaria because they had a Bulgarian national consciousness, under a League of Nations supervised exchange that was in principle voluntary.
Macedonians have self-identified as Macedonians since Hesiod freely. Once they even had their own state. You say you have self-identified as Macedonians since 1944, also freely. I remind you at that time when these new Yugoslav “Macedonians” were created, Yugoslavia had come behind the curtain of a totalitarian form of communism. I am not going to argue the obvious forever. Whether or not you are interested in truth, as you know about this subject so much, I am certain you already know the facts well. You are clearly not going to convince me and the more you argue, the more exposed these ridiculous claims become.
I would love to join the debate, but it is on history and not on the present.
I have problems with this kind of backward-looking argumentation that doesn't really care for what is important today, it uses categories of ethnicity and cultural background that can be turned around forever without getting to any agreement.
It is exactly this kind of useless debate I find harmful, because it focuses on differences instead of similarities.
This is not about winning a competition...
Julien, there is no discussion without mentioning something that went 2 or 3 thousand years ago, but when someone says that since 1944 every Macedonian self-declares as such, then it is constructed... It is impossible to speak. The level of national intoxication is so high as in 1926 there are 1,5 million refugees that were settled in Macedonia (then called Occupied territories, New territories, New Greece, etc.) and Greece proper. These 1,5 million refugees settled in 1926 in Macedonia and NOW they are Macedonians?!? And we, who allegedly settled in 6th century, cannot be called Macedonians?
And when I try to turn the discussion off historical topics, then we end with a story that UN Declaration of Human Rights allows THEM to self-declare as Greeks (but somehow ethnic Macedonians, too) and it does not allow me to self-declare myself as a Macedonian!
Finally, the level of discussion is always the same - the centralization of Greek society and the status of politicians gives the right to Greek discussants to always quote politicians and raise their statements to the level of divinity. Not what people feel or say, but the politicians said you don't exist... C'mon... Let's enjoy the beautiful common Macedonian sun and sea... But, now Britannica published that there are 1,8% confirmed ethnic Macedonians in Greece, and now they are again pissed off. They only wants us to disappear from the face of the Earth so they can claim the Macedonian name exclusively.
Dear Julien,
I sympathise with your interest in resolving something for the best. The Greek Prime Minister and President and their forerunners have stated that they support FYROM but not their misappropriation of history. Nor do 355 academics. So I think that should be in agreement with your view, especially if you think history is unimportant. FYROM should desist from misapproprating Greek history and cultural symbols. They should take pride in their own culture and identity, that is more important.
Kirov,
Macedonia was called Macedonia as soon as it was liberated by Greece in 1912. It was not called occupied territories and all that silly stuff, please get in touch with the rest of the world. The original name of FYROM was South Serbia, then Vardarska. The decision made during Stalinist times while Tito and the Cominform were supporting the communisation of Greece, stalinist style, can hardly be considered free, this is an inversion of logic.
Macedonia (in Greece) according to League of Nations records was inhabited by a Greek majority with a 13% Slavic minority. The influx of refugees changed the demographics but they were not the only cause. The majority of the Slavic population left for Bulgaria because they considered themselves Bulgarians. What do you think should happen? The Greeks should return to Constantinople, Smyrna, etc? The Bulgarians should return to Greece? Greeks should go to live on the Bulgarian coast?What does that have to do with FYROM?
Macedonian Slavs (of Greece and they are only about 20000 not 1.8% of the Greek population) can also be considered Macedonians and enjoy the sun and sea - this is clearly in your mind. The inhabitants of FYROM, who are not Macedonians other than in the propaganda sense of 1944-45, should also enjoy the sun and sea, especially once they start promoting and feel pride for their real ethnic identity.
The fleet that CONQUERED NEW GREECE
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/en/img_A3315a.html
Julien You are F@#%^ retard !!"
Go growl in you hole ..
Julien,
I haven't had time to read all the comments here, but on Nov 27th you said
"If FYROM calls itself "England" it might be strange, but as long as it doesn't pretend to BE the original England, if by calling itself England the rights of English people are not infringed (other than having to get used that there is a second England) I don't see a problem."
That is exactly the case here - FYROM is not only taking the name of Macedonia, but also wants the to take the history and heritage that belongs to the Greeks. (Almost all world scholars agree with the fact that the history of Macedonia - Alexander, Philip, etc belongs to the Greeks.) If you take the history, symbols, etc are you not claiming to be the original Macedonis? To publsh maps and textbooks showing your country as ancient Macedonia are you not claiming to be the original Macedonia? Shouldn't one culture fight to maintain it's heritage, it's identity? I don't think the Greeks are out of line, I think FYROM is lucky that Greek investors are supporting it's economy. The Greeks should pull out all together and let them fend for themselves.
Charles, or should I say Karolos? Well, your reasoning clearly shows that you firmly believe that EVERYTHING can be bought for money and therefore you must be Greek. No my friend, Greek companies in Macedonia are not from the Red Cross, World Bank, EBRD or some other charity. No, they are in Macedonia to make money for them. Wake up, nobody believes that Greek bearing gifts are any good...
AND, it's other way around. YOU are trying to monopolize the ancient history. Even that UNESCO and all relevant people say that ancient history belong to world, you say that the legacy is YOURS, maybe to the world, but not to your closest neighbor. And check this - http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=23227 . Your beloved former FM claims that 38% of ancient Macedonia are in todays Republic of Macedonia. Greek Macedonia is only 20% of Greece. Ancient Macedonia makes 100% of Republic of Macedonia my friend... We are proud to be Macedonians, always were, always will be. And you are Greek. (And I don't want to even mention unsubstantiated claims that in our books it is said that Republic of Macedonia ever ruled the whole region!?! No, Macedonia was divided in 1913 between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece and we are the only liberated part i.e. ruled by Macedonians)
Actually it is just Charles. I made no mention of buying anything - it is an undeniable fact that Greek business men are investing highly in your economy, nobody said they were not making a profit from it. I beleive most of the FYROM is in what was Paionia, a region conquered by Philip - Using your logic, Macedionia would also reach through Egypt up to India. I did my research and as an impartial viewer (as I said, it is just Charles), I think you need to take a step back and take a better look at the big picture. On a more realistic note - FYROM needs to realize that if they insist on using the name Macedionia, they may never get into NATO or the EU, as the Greeks will use thier veto power. The dream of reuniting Macediona is also something that would never happen - the only way that would happen is by force and FYROM isn't strong enough. Foregive me, but the conversation would get here sooner or lateer, so lets end it with this summation:
Winston Churchil once said "We will no longer say that the Greeks fight like heros, but that heros fight like Greeks" after Italy's failed attempt to invade Greece with "vastly superior forces", FYROM is not strong enough regardless of what is in their hearts. Lets not pretend that option even exists, the only way Macedonia would be reunited with that scenario is under Greek rule. (The Greeks would only do so if pushed to a corner.)
The reality of it is that for a better future for FYROM, you need to drop Macedonia and move on, the Greeks won't and have no incentive to do so.
Yes you claim that the Greek investments salvage our economy. The bankrupt EU member helps us? C'mon, these companies are in here for profit...
If you claim that we come in Macedonia in 6th century, why don't you observe the fact that the majority of Greeks come to Macedonia after 1913, 1926 from Asia Minor. And these Greeks are bigger Macedonians then US?
There is no FYROM (especially no such acronym, so if you like short names, use Macedonia, MK, MKD).
If we are Paionia, in which century was Greece name invented? Why don't you call yourselves united city states of Athens, Sparta, etc?
We'll always be only Republic of Macedonia - in or out of EU, NATO. And yes, we self-declare ourselves as Macedonians on every census. Case closed. (Again, don't go in history as Athens never ruled Macedonia, it was other way around).
YEs, as I said the investors are there for a profit, I never said otherwise - they wouldn't be there otherwise.
Actually "Greece" is a foriegn name for "Greece". The Greek term is Ellas, as it has always been.
All arguments are irrelevant - your country needs to move on and give up on Macidonia to establish a future for itself. The Greeks have no motivation to change thier position. The Greeks are both stubborn and pridefull; Add to this the fact that they take the fact that maps, mony, and textbooks were designed with part of their country showing as yours, the have incentive not to change their position. Unless you accept this, there will be no EU or Nato membership, and a limited future for your country.
What is right or wrong can be debated forever, but your country needs the opportunities and protection that these memberships would provide - That is the only fact here that is beyond dispute.
Karolos, Hellenic is also foreign. Check with Droysen.
We will never move on and give up. We have no incentive to do so. Especially that there are no possible arguments except that you are (falsely or not) proud and stubborn.
Also there are no maps, money, textbooks that show that Aegean Macedonia is part of Republic of Macedonia. If you claim something, try to find some evidence, first.
What about your OFFICIAL maps? http://www.vinozito.gr/news/2007/july06_e.asp
The only undisputable fact is that we are self-declared Macedonians and we'll never change that. It's up to you to decide WHEN you will accept it.
Driysen has already been proven wrong. "Ellas" predates him by centuries - check Homer. I think it is pointless to converse with you. You will only look at things from a onesided perspective, pick half truths as facts. You are more stubborn than the Greeks. Good luck with you futurless country, for however long it lasts. I am out.
Kirev and please you check in some library of your choice if the word hellenic is not Greek. What is this nonsense supposed to mean?
That the Macedonians conquered Athens does not make the Macedonians Yugoslav. Use some rules of logic.
------------------
“I shall not indulge in a lecture on the ancient identity of the Macedonians and on Philip II of Macedon and Alexander the Great, but the Greeks were historically correct in the campaign that they launched in the early days of the dispute…
“Nor shall I engage in a lecture on the falsification of the history of Slavo-Macedonia since 1944, although that, too, has much hard factual content. I simply remind the House that Tito’s renaming of Vardar Banovina as the Republic of Macedonia in 1944 was a political statement.
[Mr. Edward O’Hara of the British Parliament]
Oh, Lefteri (Free in greek?), sorry to disturb you but http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Hellenic
Anyway, since when politicians are experts on someone's nationality? We self-declare ourselves as Macedonians. We have passports that say that we are Macedonians. What about you? Greeks? And Macedonians? And Arvanites? And Wallachs? What's next? You are direct descendants of every possible tribe from the ancient times?
Anyway, don't try to go to history. If you want history - let's say that since liberation in 1944 on every census we self-declare as Macedonians. Earlier traces can be found on the NYT.com site , Ellis Island records, etc. Far, far, away from the Serb, Greek, Bulgarian regimes of the 19 and 20th century.
And about the Banovina claims - did you check at Wikipedia who named Macedonian part in Yugoslavi as Vardarska Banovina and when? The problem with you people is that you don't want to hear that someone has the right to call himself a Macedonian.
Shall I remind you when the Gypsies had no ID cards in Greece? Sorry, there are no Gypsies, they are Greeks of Roma origin? Or there are no Turks in Greece, but turkish speaking Greks of muslim faith? How do you call homosexuals in Greece? Or Albanians? They all can choose their own names, and Macedonians cannot? C'mon, don't you try to go there, because YOUR name is questionable, don't you ever read Nikos Dimou? Or he is not Greek enough because he does not share a chunk out of the $130 million paid to journalists to spread the "hellenic" character of Macedonia?!? http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/10962/2/
Dear Fyrom friends and neighbours,
First of all i want to declare that I am Greek but i do not consider myself prejudised (or at least i believe that i am prejudiced).
I just felt that i had to ask some basic questions and i want to receive an answer if possible.
1) Why did ancient Macedonians spoke Greek and not a Slavic dialect?
2) Why was Alexander so anxious to free the Greek city states in Asia Minor and set free his Greek brothers??
3) Why did Macedonians warshiped the 12 gods of Olympous if they weren 't Greeks?
4) It is known that Alexander's father "Phillip" and his Grandfather Amintas, descended from a royal family that came from Argos (a Greek municipality in Peloponese) and Alexander's mother was Olympia was from Ipeirus. If his parents were Greek why then he isn't a Greek?
5) In Greek Alexander means "the one who protects men", Phillip means "the one that loves horses".What do these names mean in Slavic words??
6) Slavs descended from the northen territories in the sixth century AD and incorporated by the Byzantine Empire. Where were they all these centuries???
7) Philip's tomb is located in Vergina (an area located in Macedonia Greece). Are there any archaological sites situated in Fyrom and where are they??
8) Fyrom's second large political party is the Albanian party (if I am correct?). How will they call themselves Macedonians since they feel Albanians????
9) If US hadn't recognised your country with the name Macedonia do you still think that would anybody else bother to recognise yoy by that name??? (It is something like the Russian-Georgian dispute over the territory of Abhazia where no one dares to challenge Russia)!
If you are kind enough pls provide me with an objective answer and not with an answer from a person with, say personal or other interests in Fyrom named Macedonia (eg George Soros, Donald Ramsfeld etc).
I would be very happy to hear the opinion of someone from the other side of the fence.
Not only Anonymous, you are ignorant, too! Do we have archeological sites?!? Like there was a Macedonian Berlin wall? You are out pal... If you want to check - just use your ID card (no passport needed for EU nationals, including Greeks) to come outside of your fence to Macedonia...
Still you haven't answered to all that i've asked!!!!
Please give me some answers on these matters and i will accept then that you have fundamental rights in calling yourselves Macedonians!
Free is just a free Macedonian as opposed to an occupied Macedonian, which is what the Bulgarians had in mind in 1912, 1914, 1941 and Tito in 1946-49. You say don’t try to go to history while FYROM claims they are Macedonia, a country that existed 2300 years ago, what kind of statement is that? If history is not important, then we expect to see that the Greek word Macedonia, its territory and history are left alone.
What Droysen may have used for the first time possibly is the word Hellenism as one says socialism. That does not mean that Hellenes or societies did not exist before. Until someone coins the word Italianism until then the Italians have not existed? Your point is so trivial, if that is what you are saying, it is pointless.
Germans can be Bavarians, Swabians, Saxons, etc, the French can be Provencal, Breton, or whatever, I see no problem, why is it a problem with Greek regional identities? Macedonians, Athenians, Spartans, Cretans, Epirotans all of the Greeks became part of the Roman and Byzantine empires. Their history is the history of the Greek culture, traditions and language. Tito and Stalin created Yugoslav “Macedonia” only in 1944. They are the experts in this case of the usurpation of a word to serve the purposes of communist propaganda. The misuse of the word Macedonia by Comintern and later Tito reflected plans to partition Greece and Bulgaria, the national states, to create a multinational internationalist republic. It was a communist experiment that never got far off the ground. FYROM clings onto this ridiculous concept but somehow wants to turn it into a nationalistic one, claiming a Yugoslav “Macedonian” nationality, which you say you self-identify with. Comintern records, the Stalin speech and the US records and Greek sensibilities concur in that Tito used the name “Macedonian” as a weapon to occupy Greek Macedonia.
At least by limiting the “Macedonia” of FYROM to post Ellis Island records, we have a foundation about how the country could be distinguished from historic Macedonia, in Greece. However, FYROM must make that proposal, and it is long overdue.
The Slavs of Macedonia are Slavs of Macedonia, they are not the only Macedonians, just as the Slavs of Athens are not the only Athenians and the Slavs of Crete are not the only Cretans. They cannot demand to have exclusive use of the name (nor can the Russians, the Bulgarians or FYROM, for that matter). If the Slavs of Crete wanted to identify themselves as an ethnic community, they could identify themselves as Slavocretans, Slavic Cretans, Slavophone Cretans or Russian Cretans or whatever but not as “Cretans”, the only Cretans. It should not be so hard to understand, it is common sense.
Anonymous, just search on Wikipedia, no free lessons for you... In the meantime, can you find the first Greek constitution of 1821 and to help me find the connection between you new self-called Greeks and the Ancient Greeks?
Elefteri, you wish. Do you know who can name other people? Slave owners could. The prison wards can give names to other people. We are not slaves, we are not prisoners.
We are Macedonians, a census is coming, 2 million people will again freely write that they are Macedonians. No fear of Markos, Metaxas, Ottomans, Byzantines, Romans...
Hi everyone,
when I wrote the post I meant to speak against this kind of discussions that lead to nowhere, but as I see you are having fun in asking yourselves questions and to play with seemingly historical facts and self-proclaimed authoritative definitions about the past and the present.
The question I am asking all of you: Do you think you contribute to a solution or don't you feel that you are part of the problem?
Julien,
I am trying to point out something that is obvious to me and nobody seems to care.
IF we decide to go back to history, then we have to do it for all the nations, not for Macedonians only.
Ditto if we decide to do genetic testings.
Ditto for any OTHER conditions for Macedonia and Macedonians.
The simpler, the better.
Anyone can choose its name. My people choose the name they always used at home, but officially the very first time they were free to choose, back in 1944. We do not have any other name.
Again, how come you obey the wish of Gypsies to be called Roma, Niggers to be called African-Americans, Shiptars to be called Albanians, but you avoid to call me Macedonian AS I REQUEST AND HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE CALLED?
I am not trying to make you mad or anything else. I ve studied History & archaiology in Greece and then took a Master's (In England).
I can assure that none of my teachers (or other lecturers) ever mentioned that macedonians were slavs, since slavs did not have a national identity at that era.
Wiki, by the way is not such a secured area for someone to investigate (that 's why it is called the free encyclopedia).
The general academic rule to classify nations is by the following :
Alphabet and hand writting
Religion
Customs
Macedonians spoke and wrote Greek, worshiped the 12 Gods of Olympus and sacrificed to them according to the Greek customs. That's what makes them Greeks (that is also applying to ancient Troyans that many people thing they were Turks due to their location-Turks first appeared in the Mediterranian at the Byzantine Era).
Moreover participation to the Olympic Games was permitted only to Greeks and as you know macedonians were entitled to participate.
These are the things i have been taught throughout my studies and I do not believe that my English teachers were prejudised.
PS : I did not claim that modern Greeks have 100% connection with the ancient Greeks because that would be stupit after all these wars and mixed marriages.
PS 2: I placed a lot of questions that still you haven't answered. Please inform me about what Fyrom citizens or scholars have to say on these subjects.
Kirev and Julien,
And Macedonians are making the point that if you do not want another people's history and territory (the Macedonians') then stick to your own ethnicity and call it something in your own language!
Lefteraki,
Do you plan to rename Sofia in Bulgarian language? Georgi (Prvanov) too? Should I continue with finding all the names in close vicinity of Macedonia that you would LIKE to be changed?
The names of people are changed only in prisons and nazi detention camps. To numbers. You allow Niggers, Gipsies, faggots to choose their own names, and you do not allow me? C'mon.
BTW, according to statistics (from old Yugoslavia and from free Macedonia) even before 1910 the most popular male name in Republic of Macedonia was Alexander.
I am Macedonian. From Republic of Macedonia.
Risto (Kirev),
You do not need to change your name, only to adopt your real name. Identity theft is a crime, not a right.
Free Macedonian from Macedonia.
Dear Julien,
Perhaps you should accept by now that this is not a simple issue. The name Macedonia was adopted to make claims on Greek history and land by the Comintern and later by Yugoslav dictator Tito. Now the same claims are maintained by a clique of politicians and some independent writers and from FYROM.
The government of FYROM has signed an international agreement in 1995 under UN auspices to not use the name Macedonia even in bilateral relations. Nevertheless, FYROM has sought and achieved to be recognised bilateraly as Macedonia in establishing diplomatic relations with 125 countries. That means 125 violations of the New York Agreement since 1995. It has also not proposed a name to replace FYROM, when of course Macedonia is unacceptable. In fact FYROM has fulfilled no part of the UN Agreement, as if it was written on scrap paper. Finally, when Greece stopped supporting the accession of FYROM to international organisations (NATO, a military alliance of which Greece was a member) perceiving FYROM as hostile and intrasigent, FYROM took Greece to the ICJ - quite ridiculously.
Myself as a Macedonian do not want my history or land even played at in the minds of people like Kirev. Let alone that they usurp my identity. If they want to be called something they will have to tell us how that something makes it absolutely clear they have nothing to do with our identity, causes little or no confusion, and makes no demands on Greek history and land. Considering what you said at first, I think this is a fairly reasonable request. Not only that, but FYROM has signed a UN Agreement to do exactly that!
It is not Greece's business but FYROM's to propose a name. Nevertheless for the sake of an example, Yugoslav Macedonian Vardarska might be acceptable if the nationality was similarly clearly stated. There would be no confusion with Greek Macedonia, it makes it clear we are talking of a different nationality and ethnicities, moreover of a country related to Yugoslavia not Greece with a definite geographic localisation. None of that is inaccurate or impinges on other countries' rights and land.
If however, Fyrom genuinely wanted to make no claims on Macedonia, then there are so many choices from the history of the inhabitants of the FYROM region. It is puzzling why none of those has been proposed.
Those who think FYROM's behaviour is not problematic perhaps ought to propose names from their own countries as a potential solution. Roman Empire, Prussia, England, Empire of the Franks and such like. Something may work and they may get off Greece's back.
Lefteri,
I really found out that either you do not speak English well, either you do not have a clue about what you are speaking, either you have never seen the Interim Agreement and all the other UN documents in UN archives, either you are mentally challenged. It seems it is not the first and the last...
Either way, it is a way too hard for me to try to help you.
Bye.
"All nations in the Balkan peninsula in order to establish their territorial rights need to have proven record of history of at least 2000 years of existence"
This was the result of a survey made by Balkan historians and archeologists and in this way FYROM is looking links to the past in order to be accepted as a nation that deserves to have a say in the Balkans.
Other than the above-mentioned facts FYROM is strongly supported by the USA. FYROM like Kosovo will be used as huge camp for US armies and missals against Russia.
Do not be fooled by those Americans that support FYROM in its expectations. Once they won't need FYROM as a strategic partner, Bulgary and Albania will be more than willing to share land and expand their fronts beyond the current ones, and USA won't even bother to send troops to prevail peace in the territory.
Don't you see that FYROM named Macedonia is an American trick to bring disorder to the Balkans once again ???? (There are many similar situations such as Kosovo, Cyprus etc).
This land needs peace and not disorder and chaos.
For instance... why USA is so anxious for Turkey entering EU????
The answer is because Turkey is also a strategic partner of the US and by entering EU will give USA a strong say in European matters.
Considering all the questions that i have placed in my previous post (concerning macedonian identity) and by the above mentioned political games of the US,i believe that FYROM is just playing USA's game!!!!
"All nations in the Balkan peninsula in order to establish their territorial rights need to have proven record of history of at least 2000 years of existence"
The usual way of doing things. Invent a quote and you have a history. What a bunch of losers...
I am Macedonian. From Republic of Macedonia.
It is a guaranteed right for 7 billion people to self-declare themselves and it is guaranteed for all the Macedonians, too.
By wishing to declare yourseles as Macedonian you first of all violate the very right you claim to uphold. You deny a people like ourselves the right to self-identify as Macedonians. We are definitely not the same as you and at the very least you need to tell us what kind of Macedonians you are, because we definitely cannot be both simply Macedonians.
I think you agreed that you go as far back as the Ellis Islands records, a century ago, so please help us understand what you were before then so that we can decide on mutually agreed identities.
Free Macedonian from Macedonia.
I am declaring myself as Macedonian. If you are positive that I violate your rights, why don't you use legal proceedings to fix that? Why bullying us instead?
Because the law is on our side...
Kirev,
Disputes between states are resolved today through international agreements. Your country has signed an international agreement (New York Accord of 1995) to adopt an official name that will be acceptable to Greece. Obviously Macedonia is precisely not such a mutually acceptable name. In fact it was the very reason the Agreement was agreed upon, because the name Macedonia is not admissible. It is like going to a court, the judge makes a decision, the two sides agree to it, sign the paperwork and then nothing happens. Is it not embarassing to you that your country has been admitted to the United Nations on the basis of such an agreement and that your governments have not so far made a single proposal?
That's your wishful thinking Free. Wishful thinking. You cannot access UN archives to read what's written and to discuss it. You are blind by Athens' propaganda.
So, WE put your government to trial in front of International Court of Justice. In June we are going to UN to get our name back, I suppose.
You, UN, CoE, USA, anyone, cannot name another country. That right belongs to the citizens. End of story.
All the countries in the world already know it, except 13 others besides Greece...
I think you mean well Julien but in practice the FYROM government are not only claiming the name but many of their officials manipulate the name to portray themselves as direct descendants of ancient Macedonians and encourage its citizens to see Macedonia Greece as their "occupied" homeland.
Putting aside this contradicts history (since FYROM nationalists are mostly ethnic Bulgarians that have simply renamed themselves) it also tramples on the identity rights of Macedonian Greeks (which are having their identity stripped from them them which is why Greeks are upset), threatens the territorial integrity of several sovereign countries (including Bulgaria and Albania), and creates perpetual instability in the Balkans (since the FYROM government's historical fabrications will still be a lie whether they are part of the EU/NATO or not)
In my opinion, if the FYROM government can't compromise on the name and come to grips with their Bulgarian past, they are more interested in their nationalist myths rather than the European project.
Anonymous, it is common practice to blame without any proofs. Politicians in Macedonia do not deal with history. They do not claim exclusivity not it is in their job to decide if we are or we are not connected to ancient Macedonians. It is up to historians, and, yes, we are connected. Unless there was a Berlin wall between Aegean Macedonia and todays Republic of Macedonia.
Yes, you occupied New Territories / New Greece in 1913. Your maps say so.
Yes, all the prosfigi didn't know a word Greek so you had to teach them and the locals to speak Greek. Remember general Metaxas?
There's nothing to compromise - you are Macedonian Greeks (or Greek Macedonians), and we are (ethnic) Macedonians.
Again, if you are so positive that we are stealing something, why don't you give us to court?
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